Apparently there’s an issue with some instances banning users for criticizing authoritarian governments. Is lemmy.world a safe place to criticize governments?
Well let’s find out: Free Ukraine! Fuck Russia. Fuck China!
Mao Zedong is objectively one of the worst people in all of human history, and his influence held China back for decades, and continues to harm it to this day.
You know, I agree that he shouldn’t have collaborated with America’s foreign policy following the sino-soviet split, but I don’t think that even puts him as a major candidate in the running.
Edit: He also really should have given the sparrow thing a test run, and there are other criticisms to make, but these are still lesser than the original one. There was bad theory and bad practice in the Cultural Revolution, but overwhelmingly its biggest problem was endangering the revolution that Mao led to establish the PRC in the first place, something for which he deserves credit on account of poverty reduction, drastic increase in life expectancy, land-redistribution, etc. Oh yeah, and the whole “opposing Japanese and British colonialism” thing, since the KMT rolled over for that, but hopefully that goes without saying.
It seems like you’ve left out the part where multiple tens of millions of people died as a result of his policies.
fuck the orcs. fuck the CCCP. Winne the Pooh shouldn’t run a country
fuck the orcs
hate the government not the people am i right?
yea
why you calling them orcs then
Probably because they act inhumanely?
The rape and torture of combatants and civilians? The bombing of critical infrastructure to leave a scorched earth on retreat? The indiscriminate targeting of civilian evacuees? The theft of Ukranian children and taking them to Russia to brainwash them at best and put them into the sex trade as one of the worse options? The attempts and calls for genocide against another group of people?
Humans have a social contract that is more or less consistent across the globe. We are social animals endowed with empathy and we don’t enjoy seeing others suffering. If you break this social contract, why would you be surprised that people treat you as though you were inhuman? Why are you bothering to turn this plight onto the Russians who are not currently being targeted by any of the above?
Friendly reminder that this method of turning the Russians into the victims of “russophobia” in any thread about Ukraine or Russias policies is russian troll posting 101. You should consider hard who you are currently coming to the defense of.
Are you still with us now?
They have comments from a couple hours ago.
I think Winnie the Pooh got him.
Oh bother.
He found a window and pavement
Hey there. This instance currently follows the code of conduct and rules for mastodon.world: https://mastodon.world/about
Discussion and civil criticism of these subjects is allowed, but name calling, ad hominem attacks, and other uncivil behaviour breaks the rules.
Also remember that specific communities here may have additional rules.
It looks like we can’t pin comments yet, so apologies if this reply gets buried. For now I’m going to lock this post, as the discussion has degraded and is full of rule-breaking.
Haven’t had any problems so far! Taiwan numbah one! Fuck Putin!
i mean lemmy.world server is in germany, but the guy who runs it is dutch so probably has a pretty open policy with freedom of speech i would imagine. And i mean real freedom of speech not the dog whistle for being a dick/racist/phobe
As one of the Admins of Lemmy.World we’re pretty open but if you’re a dick and unnecessarily a troll we’ll kick ya.
Does that mean that you find everything in this thread that hasn’t yet been removed to fall within those bounds? (excluding very new stuff that you might not have gotten to)
My thought process is that if you’re overtly rude and crude and lump one type of people into one group indiscriminately that’s not free speech. Also this is not the US government or run by the US government. So Free Speech doesn’t necessarily apply.
I’m the first one to say that an uncritical and crassly-applied “free speech” ideology is deleterious, but it’s the First Amendment that doesn’t apply, not the concept of Free Speech itself. Under the Constitution, you are free not to apply the concept of Free Speech yourself since the First Amendment doesn’t apply to your moderation, but that does not answer the question of whether you should or not.
Of course, my answer is that some speech is worth protecting and some is not and questions of natural rights have nothing to do with that, so the chauvinistic redditors posting social credit score memes that were tired years ago and thoroughly debunked don’t need a platform, but that’s just my take on the matter.
Oh yeah, and the “orc” meme is clearly racist, but that’s why I worded my original question the way I did.
Thank you for your time and have a good day.
You say “thoroughly debunked” but this is what your article says:
It’s true that, building on earlier initiatives, China’s State Council published a road map in 2014 to establish a far-reaching “social credit” system by 2020. The concept of social credit (shehui xinyong) is not defined in the increasing array of national documents governing the system, but its essence is compliance with legally prescribed social and economic obligations and performing contractual commitments. Composed of a patchwork of diverse information collection and publicity systems established by various state authorities at different levels of government, the system’s main goal is to improve governance and market order in a country still beset by rampant fraud and counterfeiting.
Under the system, government agencies compile and share across departments, regions, and sectors, and with the public, data on compliance with specified industry or sectoral laws, regulations, and agreements by individuals, companies, social organizations, government departments, and the judiciary. Serious offenders may be placed on blacklists published on an integrated national platform called Credit China and subjected to a range of government-imposed inconveniences and exclusions. These are often enforced by multiple agencies pursuant to joint punishment agreements covering such sectors as taxation, the environment, transportation, e-commerce, food safety, and foreign economic cooperation, as well as failing to carry out court judgments.
These punishments are intended to incentivize legal and regulatory compliance under the often-repeated slogan of “whoever violates the rules somewhere shall be restricted everywhere.” Conversely, “red lists” of the trustworthy are also published and accessed nationally through Credit China.
In other words, there isn’t literally a singular social credit score for everyone in China, but the government does indeed collect vast amounts of surveillance information about your compliance with its draconian laws and obligations from a wide range of agencies and compile that into a list of services you should be blocked from and so on. So it “doesn’t exist” in a very narrow literal sense, but definitely does practically speaking. This is hairsplitting technicalities to get away from reality.
It’s also an article by Foreign Policy because I didn’t want to get into a spat about sourcing. Mostly it applies to businesses, not people, and unsubstantiated words like “draconian” are doing a lot of heavy lifting. FP likes to obfuscate that fact, but you can see even in what you quoted that they tip their hand on the rhetorical contortions they are doing when they list:
These are often enforced by multiple agencies pursuant to joint punishment agreements covering such sectors as taxation, the environment, transportation, e-commerce, food safety, and foreign economic cooperation, as well as failing to carry out court judgments.
hmm, what do these things all have in common? They all apply overwhelmingly or virtually-exclusively to businesses! E-commerce can, without further elaboration, apply to peer-to-peer interactions like on ebay, and “court judgement” is a similarly vague term, but you don’t get some normal private citizen on charges related to “food safety,” “foreign economic cooperation,” or – based on it not being titled “traffic law” or whatever – “transportation”, and the overwhelming majority of both tax payment and tax fraud is done by the rich.
There is a social credit system for businesses, and their should be. Reddit memes about “-20 billion social credit score” for posting a meme with lego tanks has no place in reality.
Whose definition of natural rights are you enforcing? Because your definition might not be as broad as mine, and if that’s the case I want you banned for questioning natural rights
(Obviously I’m not serious, this is an illustration of why enforcing ideology is not a good idea)
this is an illustration of why enforcing ideology is not a good idea
This reminds me of people saying the government shouldn’t “legislate morality,” i.e. be involved in or have a stance on moral issues. In both cases, it seems to me to be oblivious to the status-quo that ideology/morality are already enforced in those respective domains and there is no end in sight for that.
The admin who kindly gave me some of his time indeed already shared the basic ideological tenets of the administration policy. The deplatforming of rudeness, of crassness, and of, uh, “lumping one type of people into a group indiscriminately” are all ideological concerns unless you want to look at it merely as market concerns, as though that changes the fact.
It’s also common practice to at least nominally ban the spreading of misinformation, though our host gave no indication of doing that, and this again is also a highly ideological tenet. If misinformation drives engagement – and we know it can – why ban it? Presumably because it is also a social ill, or because you want to have a positive reputation, etc.
But these are things that are obfuscated in the “Discourse,” thanks in part to the wonderful legacy of classical liberal authors who wanted to find a way to make their ideology look like non-ideology (see Locke using faux a priori arguments to protect the property rights of monopolists).
If you want a comparison, I’ll use the Republican whipping-dog because you are probably familiar with it. Repubs talk a big game about “Small government.” “The government that governs best governs least.” “The most terrifying sentence in the English language is: ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” And yet, though they are not alone in this, they are perhaps the most enthusiastic supporters of increasing the power and funding of police and the military! That doesn’t seem like “small government” to me! But that’s because when they talk about “government” in this context, that’s not what they mean, they mean a very narrow subset of laws mostly connected to austerity and corporate deregulation that they want to promote. This kind of double-talk is a rhetorically powerful tool for derailing critical thinking by essentially baiting the listener into conflating cases that are very different.
The blanket denouncement of “enforcing ideology” reminds me of that. Sure, there are bad ways to do it, and you provided an example, but that does not mean it cannot be done well and it obfuscates that it is already being done! The question is not about whether or not to enforce ideology, but what ideological lines to enforce and how. The status quo is not neutral just because we have been habituated to it!
Edit: Total aside, but I don’t believe in natural rights (I think human welfare is better advanced by other frameworks), I was just speaking in terms of the ideology of the Constitution, which does support that idea.
I still feel like I need a new term for this. Yet another word co-opted by idiots.
you continue to use freedom of speech and dont give them the satisfaction of coopting it
Freedom of speech with consequences?
Nah. I want to defederate from people sharing racial slurs, because I cba with them. If they don’t consider that a ‘consequence’ then I don’t really care.
I definitely don’t want consequences for people sharing negative opinions about governments.
So I guess I just want freedom of speech + personal curation.
Doesn’t Germany have laws against certain hate speech? Would those laws apply to lemmy.world and it’s hosted content?
[IANAL] In Germany only specific types of hate speech are criminal. These are:
- Use of Nazi symbols and slogans for other than artistic or educational purposes (things like the Swastika, the SS logo, or the Nazi salute, but not more modern versions like the “white power” guesture and similar)
- Direct calls for violence against groups or individuals
- Denying that the Holocaust happened or trivializing it’s extend
Other forms of hate speech might be cause for civil suits or may oblige the platform provider to remove your speech, but do not rise to a criminal offence.
Again: I am not a lawyer.
All governments should be able to be criticized if we’re going to be honest about having genuinely open discussions.
You can actually use https://lemmymap.feddit.de/ to get an idea of how free a particular lemmy instance is thanks to the option to show blocks. Lemmy.world seems to be the only large instance that has not been blocked by or blocked any other instances
Lemmy.World and Lemmy. Ml are two different places. Lemmy ML was created as a safehaven for people from subreddits that were banned like ChapoTrapHouse. Lemmy. World is designed to be the general Lemmy Community. Lemmy. Ml was the biggest until the reddit issues but I am pretty sure Lemmy World is after overtaking them. Lemmy.ML is trying to steer traffic here because they know that their community wasn’t going to be palatable to the vast majority of people. There’s a wide variety here so it’s very hard to pinpoint where this place’s userbase stands politically.
Lemmy. ML and Lemmy.world are different places and it’s for the best if we just leave each be and have our own communities in peace.
deleted by creator
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Probably not,
.ml
is free (provided by the same registrar as.tk
) on a year-by-year basis and was much more popular around the time lemmy started.could also be Markup Language
Have you ever actually watched the video? Really makes you think 🤔
Just a couple of days I got over 800k views for posting ⚠ A MAN HAS BEEN SPOTTED PROTESTING IN LEGO CITY ⚠. Now deleted, or maybe on privat.
Just imagine how much interesting and actually usefull information will be gone just because of a selfish CEO…
Really makes me think why you’d spend time defending a government massacre of 1500-4000 protesters, with 10,000 injured.
Unfortunately I also saw the videos and pictures of tanks grinding bodies into pulp and washing them down drains shortly after this… That one certainly made me think.
Unfortunately I also saw the videos and pictures of tanks grinding bodies into pulp and washing them down drains shortly after this… That one certainly made me think.
No you didn’t, because no such video exists. No such video exists because that story – of pulping bodies and “washing them down drains” – is ridiculous, impractical nonsense made up by someone who wasn’t even there (I forget if it was student leader Chai Ling or one of the reporters sitting in their Beijing Hotel room who is responsible for that specific gem, but both lied about witnessing things they weren’t there for).
Why do you need to lie about what you have seen in order to defend your thesis? Aren’t these real and serious events that deserve to be treated with gravity? I don’t feel particularly inclined to speak so flippantly about the people who actually did die on June 4th – incidentally the day before the Tank Man video, which is of him obstructing tanks leaving the square.
You may be right, that I am misremembering and it was just a stream of photos. But that doesn’t mean I intentionally lied or that the photos were any less gruesome.
Fuck the CCP.
There is a mod log on Lemmy so you can see why people get banned.
why was this removed?
Lots of racism in this thread
I like China :)
Indeed, many Chinese people are very nice. Interesting language, culture, and cuisine.
But fuck the CCP.
The Romans are great! They build these seriously sturdy roads and aqueducts, promote trade, and they have some literature and stuff. It’s too bad that they’re in the habit of enslaving people and occasionally mass crucifixions.
I have friends from China who are very good humans.
Very normal thing to say.
My personal view is very similar to @Jaded5450@beehaw.org, i just didn’t say the second part.
they’re not chinese, they’re ‘good people’!
I love China, and have a generally positive opinion about their government. I’d say 70% positive and the other 30% is because I hate oppression and censorship.
Edit: Deng was the GOAT
Testing, testing, fuck authoritarian regimes, Xinnie the Pooh is a cuck, Putin is a super super gay who likes long big cocks, fuck Trump, fuck Biden, and fuck the crooks in DC. Testing testing.
Putin is a super super gay who likes long big cocks
Homophobia is fine if it’s directed at Putin
That works for me. I can’t think of very many the places I’d direct it. All similar to Putin though.
Directing homophobic attacks at anyone just makes you sound like a homophobe
I just hope people do not spam it to farm karma like on reddit.
Reads the brave, totally not circle-jerked comments in this thread
What would be the point. There is no points system in the federation.
It’s already too late for that. Without assessing why it happened on Reddit and how it should be stopped, there is no reason to believe it would not be reproduced here. It was not assessed, let alone stopped, and thereby has been reproduced.
I mean what was lemmy supposed to do? It already removed karma. People just like approval and attention
I was always under the assumption it was some weird alt right thing where they just pretend criticism of China gets censored.
It’s funny how anticommunists and rightists seem to overlap so much, even when the anticommunist claims to be progressive.