I just read this point in a comment and wanted to bring it to the spotlight.
Meta has practically unlimited resources. They will make access to the fediverse fast with their top tier servers.
As per my understanding this will make small instances less desirable to the common user. And the effects will be:
- Meta can and will unethically defedrate from instances which are a theat to them. Which the majority of the population won’t care about, again making the small instances obsolete.
- When majority of the content is on the Meta servers they can and will provide fast access to it and unethically slow down access to the content from outside instances. This will be noticeable but cannot be proved, and in the end the common users just won’t care. They will use Threads because its faster.
This is just what i could think of, there are many more ways to be evil. Meta has the best engineers in the world who will figure out more discrete and impactful ways to harm the small instances.
Privacy: I know they can scrape data from the fediverse right now. That’s not a problem. The problem comes when they launch their own Android / iOS app and collect data about my search and what kind of Camel milk I like.
My thoughts: I think building our own userbase is better than federating with an evil corp. with unlimited resources and talent which they will use to destroy the federation just to get a few users.
I hope this post reaches the instance admins. The Cons outweigh the Pros in this case.
We couldn’t get the people to use Signal. This is our chance to make a change.
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I’m hoping that ALL admins across the Fediverse will defederate from Meta. At least we get to have our own separate platform then.
They shouldn’t just defederate from Meta, they should defederate from any other instances that federate with Meta. Like a firewall against late stage capitalism
That will just drive many Fedi-users to Meta.
Different instances will make different decisions and users will go to the instances that suit their preferences. That’a how it is supposed to work and the only way it hurts the Fediverse is if we get flooded with threads complaining that other people have different preference, dammit.
I feel like this will just hurt us more then help.
Do you really want the Instagram crowd to interact with us…?
At least there would be people and content to interact with.
Based on your posts so far my friend, its becoming clearer why you think there’s no one to interact with.
Meta willingly under-moderated across large swaths of east Asia and Africa, leading to unchecked rumors and tangible acts of genocide. Zuckerberg has compared himself to Augustus Caesar.
I think it’s acceptable to cut off a wildfire before it spreads.
Lemmy is run by a bunch of tankies and the entire fediverse is under-moderated.
Cutting off a ton of users and content from the fediverse is stupid and everyone in here just keeps coming up with vague generalities because they’re scared of Meta rather than have actually thought through what will happen and be able to articulate any actual harms.
The reactions you are seeing are based off of Metas history. We will see how it works out.
i’ll take those “tankies” over completely unaccountable thiel’s buddies any day. actual tankies seem to be contained to lemmygrad where they don’t bother anyone outside of their instance
“Boo hoo tankies bad, but big corpo run by billionaires who spread misinformation and intentionally act to topple legitimate governments in favor of their fascist agenda are akshually good”
Arguing with people like you (corporate shill) is a waste of time, so I’d rather have fun instead.
Growth at any cost is the mindset that not only ruins anything good for profit, it is also the exact issue we are facing now in real life with the right gaining traction in many liberal and multicultural democracies.
Because everyone is being let in, without a second thought on if they even should be there, we now have massive social issues with not at all integrated subcultures in Europe that embrace values diametrically opposed to our tolerant and pluralist societies, in turn empowering the right to ruin any progress made in an effort to throw out the brown people again.
The right question to ask is not “can we accept this new member to our society?”, the right question is “should we accept this new member into our society based on their beliefs and values, based on if they can contribute anything to the existing society?”
And to return to the matter at hand, this is what the fediverse is supposed to be. A bunch of communities and little realms, each with their own rules and interests but united in their belief that self determination and democratic structures make for a better and more fair internet. And then we have the meta intruder we are about to welcome with open arms, without any rules or expectations of him to adopt our values and culture, so they bring their own, corporate, centralized culture and use their money to brute force that culture into every place of importance.
It is not racist or intolerant of societies to expect newcomers to assimilate, and ignoring that fact brought us a re emerging right.
And it is not fearmongering or small minded to be extremely sceptical of Facebook trying to establish themselves in the fediverse, they are literally the OG data and privacy violating corporation, they invented echo chambers and connecting extremists. There is zero value to the fediverse in welcoming meta. The only one who wins if that happens is meta.
I think the issue being missed here is that Meta will ultimately aim to suck all users into themselves, and then once they feel they’ve done enough of that, they will go completely closed, even potentially forking the protocol itself. If any legal attempt to stop this is made they will bog it down with hordes of lawyers for decades.
Their goal is not to help fediverse, it is recognising fediverse to be a threat and aiming to absorb it. Literally no different to how reddit slowly absorbed all internet forums into itself, killing the distributed internet.
Fediverse is attempting to bring back that distributed internet and they’re trying to find ways to kill it. All corporations seek monopoly, it’s how capitalism works.
Spot on. Anyone cooperating with them is a fool.
Big corpos don’t want to take it over, they want it gone.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Damn, that’s a terrifying vision of the future. I was on the fence with defederating, but we probably should.
Your comment should be top.
Fantastic read. Thanks for the link.
I get all the hate for meta and zuck, and I agree that they would only do so for their own commercial benefit, but I don’t think we should defederate without seeing what federating means. Everyone here is instinctively panicking and running around like headless chickens without seeing what it would actually entail.
Threads is like mastodon. If federating with threads only means that threads users can participate in lemmy, I see that as an advantage for us.
If we were a mastodon instance, this conversation would be very different.
For those who don’t know, the strategy is called Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. The phase comes from Microsoft who used this to (try to) crush competing document editors, Java implementations, browsers, and operating systems. Other big tech companies employ similar strategies.
Facebook coming to the Fediverse is the Embrace phase of this process and that makes Mastodon, Lemmy, Kbin, Misskey, and Akkoma the competitors.
If they defederate from other instances, they just means Threads users won’t see those instances. Those instances will still see Threads content, if they want. The content is also shared across instances this way, so their servers largely don’t matter. Whenever Lemmy.World or Yiffit.net is down or having problems, I just bop over to Kbin and it’s like those other two instances never actually dropped out since I can still see and interact with their posts.
I don’t see how in any way shape or form Threads can or will fuck up the entire fediverse when even if they have a majority of the users, their content gets spread around the whole network and doesn’t stay on shit they control.
And if you’re worried about their app collecting data: then don’t fucking use it. Unless you think their app, on someone else’s phone, will collect YOUR data somehow, this is a completely bullshit argument.
If I wanted to see content from my racist Trumper uncle, I would just create a Facebook account. Keep Threads far away from the rest of the Fediverse. We don’t need to compete with them. Who cares if they’re way bigger with way more content if 99% of that content is garbage?
if 99% of that content is garbage?
Counterpoint: beans.
Serious note: I think the point of decentralized networks like this is that each instance will have to choose to federate with Threads or any other future corporate social media. If that sounds dangerous, welcome to the freedom of choice baybee! It sucks that the truth is that as long as we want this to be a free space where people can choose what and where they see content, that means some will choose to work with the big-easy-techgiant rather than take a harder approach because 99% of people aren’t that invested.
Love the dialogue here but you always have to follow the money trail. The best way to keep what we love is to bankroll our instances to keep them running and scalable to additional users without ads. Remember, if you aren’t paying for the product then you become the product. Meta has nothing without selling ads or monetizing user data. That’s their business model. As long as we chip in we can always maintain our independence. I’m fine with never seeing or interacting with content from Threads.
Everyone is talking about defederating because of XMPP and EEE. But the very fact that we know about EEE means that it’s much less likely to succeed.
Zuck is seeing the metaverse crash and burn and he knows he needs to create the next hot new thing before even the boomers left on facebook get bored with it. Twitter crashing and burning is a perfect business opportunity, but he can’t just copy Twitter - it has to be “Twitter, but better”. Hence the fediverse.
From Meta’s standpoint, they don’t need the Fediverse. Meta operates at a vastly different scale. Mastodon took 7 years to reach ~10M users - Threads did that in a day or two. My guess is that Zuck is riding on the Fediverse buzzword. I’m sure whatever integration he builds in future will be limited.
TL;DR below:
I don’t think that FB even knows that lemmy exist, problem is they are so big they will crush us by accident.
Even back than with XMPP, Google didn’t kill it intentionally. No one expected it will be smaller than before google used it. I remember watching empty list where all friends were. But it happened, and I never thought that Google wanted to kill XMPP.
Regardless of what anyone thinks about politics, nothing good will come by letting them in. I hope all current instances defederate, I know mine will.
Luckily, they can’t force federated access to be slow. Once you federate with them, their content is copied to your instance. It’s not necessary for every fediverse user to contact Threads, it’ll just be served from each user’s home instance
Yet
There’s no yet about it. The architecture of how federation works makes it impossible. They can potentially make images load slow, but for the rest of the content it is fundamentally impossible
I don’t exactly understand how this is going to kill small instances? I just stared with the Fediverse stuff so I might have understood it wrong:
Point 1: “Meta will unethically defederate from instances…” I’m assuming that means they’ll block access to those instances for anyone that has an account on the Meta instance? I don’t really see the problem with that. This won’t affect small instances at all because people who want to view other instances will have an account somewhere else and people using the meta instance probably wouldn’t have heard of the fediverse in the first place if it wasn’t for meta. Its a win basically since they’ll get introduced to the fediverse concept which is a step in the right direction. And small instances will stay as they are which is unaffected.
Point 2: If I understood it correctly they can only slow down access to other instances if one uses an account created on the meta instance? So same argument as in point 1.
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Do I think facebook et al will kill “The Fediverse”: Maybe. But that will be because we’ll finally stress test things and find all those issues and determine what is a fundamental flaw versus something updatable. But I would rather use a good product/software than get cranky that one specific protocol/implementation which is demonstrably inferior got pushed out.
This just means that you’re not really here for the stated purpose of fediverse (to create a digital commons) you’re here for an alternative to reddit. You don’t care if it’s centralised and in the hands of one person or not, you’re just mad at what reddit did.
What this misses is that reddit didn’t do what it did just because Spez is a meanie. It did what it did because it’s what EVERY capitalist would have done in the run up to IPO.
What you miss here is that you’re just advocating for exactly the same conditions that caused what you didn’t like. And for some reason you don’t think those conditions would re-create exactly the same outcome in future.
You fail to understand that these outcomes are not the project of individuals with the wrong ideas. They are systemic issues and the entire point of fediverse is to subvert that system and the many problems it creates.
I’m more concerned of them integrating new features and bullying everyone else into following to integrate them or else.
Or else what? I guess they can’t do much?
“Join our fed or this code in the post body will not work for you”
I don’t care about their code in the post body. If there’s a possibility I just block the whole instance. Don’t want to see anything from them.
You missed the point. Let me rephrase.
They coule add features that makes their instance/own client add things to posts, that don’t work in other clients/instances properly.
This in effect could get some users who just don’t care about avoiding meta, and also FOMO type of users, to switch.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t care, but it’s bad for Lemmy.
I don’t really see how this is bad for Lemmy. Let me rephrase what I said as well:
Let them add those features. People who use metas instance wouldn’t have come to Lemmy in the first place. The users who “just don’t care avoiding meta” aren’t on here now (maybe there’s a miniscule amount that’s how I see it). They will come when this threads thing properly rolls out. In my opinion Lemmy won’t significantly change when this happens since people who wanted to stay on reddit did and those who are here now are trying out the better Boss way of living and probably won’t switch to meta as soon as it comes out. Therefore this won’t cause any trouble. Just block the meta instance “out of sight out of mind”.
Imagine hanging out with a group of friends and someone from outside starts harassing you and that person really doesn’t like you. Are you going to start hanging out with them? Obviously not. Just chill with your friends and don’t mind them. Nothing about your friends is going to change.
I doubt that someone who got used to the free libre FOSS style of life and really enjoys it would switch to meta. No clue what meta would have to offer to them to switch. I think its easier to switch in the other direction.
“We have to defederate or else they’ll run incompatible code that won’t let us federate with them”
This seems like a self-solving problem to me, I still don’t understand what the hyperventilation is about.
They won’t do that until after absorbing the users. Much like how Reddit killed off almost all internet forums.
Facebook and Instagram killed off the forums I used. I was highly involved with a niche art independent website forum which was pretty well known to people within the community, and then right around the time average people really started using the internet, Facebook boomed and then Instagram. Using those got huge within the community. The corresponding sub on reddit has never amounted to much at all.
Sorry to hear that. Art and photography definitely had a stronger time on platforms like insta, tumblr, and twitter, where the artists felt they were more directly benefitting and growing their presence and audience. It was more so the discussion-based forums that reddit killed.
Not sure how you’d go about building Lemmy in a way that appeals to them. Perhaps if profiles could be posted to and profiles functioned like communities that could be subscribed to, then users could subscribe directly to artists reddit sort of half-heartedly did this but never really made it very visible that you could directly follow a user and never promoted that content via the “follow” feature. Something like that could be done for Lemmy. A feed of your direct user/author subscriptions. This could however create a power-user problem.
Facebook replaced the discussion part because the average artist wasn’t nerdy/computery enough to use reddit, which was more obscure at the time (around 2011-2013). It’s still obscure compared to FB/IG even now. Then after IG started becoming popular, people hopped there because that’s what the customers were using, and at the same time the industry was flourishing.
It was also frustrating, having been involved in ecommerce website and stats development, to see people using Instagram as an auction site… the most feature-free platform to sell your work. Granted, it’s because our work (primarily glass pipes) wasn’t welcome on eBay, and eBay is overcomplicated and expensive, and Etsy allowed it but is sort of lame… but still, silly to see people have auctions in a chain of instagram comments, and then suffer all these various problems that ecommerce platforms were designed to overcome. Reserve price, reputation, record of bids, backup bids, requirement payment and follow-through. People would be “I sold and the buyer didn’t pay!” or “I bought equipment and they shipped me a brick!” and it’s like no kidding, that’s the reason ebay exists and you’re doing transactions in instagram comments.
So yeah, what you’re suggesting is basically for people to use Lemmy as a personal blog or website. I think that’s a good idea. Sort of something like tumblr. Many people are getting sick of not having an identity, not having a true connection to their customers, getting suddenly cut off from years of followers when a site decides to ban them and being lost on huge generic platforms that cover everything. There’s a bit of a movement towards personal websites. The best way to do that, though, is still to have your own website - I can picture that some people will have problems with instance admins who are just as arbitrary and unaccountable as large corp social media, maybe even more. So the best thing for an artist to do would be to run lemmy or pixelfed on their own domain and server, and federate. Then people from the lemmifediverse can follow and comment, whether they’re on your instance or not, and you could also add sales software, and you can’t be cut off short of losing your domain.
Technically you could hack this together in a certain way with the existing software. An artist buys a domain, hosting, puts up their own Lemmy instances but does not allow registration on it. They put up a single community on that server and make themselves the sole poster on it. They post their art and content, other people on the federation with accounts from elsewhere subscribe to that comm and comment/interact with works.
This is of course not a very clear out-of-the-box way to use Lemmy. And it has the problem of seeking out subscribers. It probably wouldn’t be too difficult to find subscribers and fans by crossposting to art communities on other lemmy sites though. Further customisation and personalisation of that site requires css and html knowledge too to edit and change the front end.
Really for all of this to be viable for that kind of audience it needs to be provided as a simple 1 purchase install and setup for that target group. Then they also need fairly advanced understanding of fediverse combined with knowledge of reddit where subreddit crossposting for growth is very powerful in order to get the growth they’d like.
And even then, it’s not gonna be what Twitter is to them. They will end up spending most of their time on Twitter because that’s where they get the dollars. This setup would be entirely in their own control though, and free of anyone else’s rules on what they can post in their own instance.
Yeah, Lemmy is already perfectly appropriate for that. It would just take an easy way to install it, the way that many hosts will install WordPress or other CMS packages automatically, and an easy theming system. I’m not really a WordPress fan (though I haven’t had to customize it in 12 years), but perhaps more realistically, Automattic is working on an ActivityPub plugin for WordPress. I’m not really sure how that will work but it would accomplish the same thing.
You really think Facebook is gonna poach users from the Fediverse, people who are explicitly here because we don’t want to be on Facebook/Twitter/etc? C’mon. This isn’t a realistic outcome.
Yes of course I do. Almost everyone here is still using corporate social media while also using fediverse, side by side, I wager you’ve looked at something corporate today. Why? Because fediverse does not have everything that they want to consume on a day to day basis.
Creating enclosures where that content exists pulls the users over because they can not get it anywhere else.
Let’s say you cook a meal, fish and potatoes. You get your fish from the river (publicly available) but the potatoes are only being grown on the corporate land. You are forced to get it from there, so you begrudgingly do because you want your full meal obviously.
Later on they find a way to enclose some of the fish too, and eventually all of it, removing it from the public space. The fediverse still exists, but it’s a shell without anything you want on it. You begrudginingly go to the corporation’s space for it.
People want their content, and enclosing on public commons by walling off that content is easy to do bit by bit, like thinly slicing a salami until it’s all gone. People will even defend against it and pretend that it’s not going to happen, like right now.
Later on they find a way to enclose some of the fish too, and eventually all of it, removing it from the public space. The fediverse still exists, but it’s a shell without anything you want on it.
This analogy doesn’t make sense. How are they gonna take what we already have and enclose it away from us? We run the servers, not them.
If they close it off again, we go back to how things are now. Which we’re all clearly fine with, because we’re already here. Are they gonna hypnotize us on the way out and lead us pied piper style?
We run the servers, not them.
So did internet forums. Where are they these days? Oh, they all became subreddits as users moved away to the convenience of reddit.
They will find a way to drown everything through big-data analysis if you give them even the slightest bit of leeway. They must be treated as a completely hostile bad-actor because that is precisely what they are.
So did internet forums. Where are they these days? Oh, they all became subreddits as users moved away to the convenience of reddit.
Moving from isolated forums to an aggregate community is a huge quality of life change. We’re talking about them convincing people who are already on the Fediverse to move to their Fediverse server, which is a side grade, offered to people who almost all hate Facebook already. There’s no hook there, and nobody has given me an even slightly plausible pathway that’ll convince anybody to move over. There’s just vague gesturing and unspoken implications.
Nobody here wants to use their server. We all know how bad they are. We’re here because of them. But suddenly a nonspecific siren call is gonna move us all over? It just doesn’t make sense. I can think of plausible ways we can gain users from this. I can’t find any plausible way to lose users or cause damage to the Fediverse that doesn’t involve mind control.
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I also think they don’t care about us, I doubt they even know we exist.
That doesn’t change that they would destroy us unintentionally. Like Vogons.
I am not worried about this. I think threads is going to end up like all the fascist instances. Perhaps they will have more users… Good for them. But the rest of us will defederate and they will become an isolated instance. Which begs the question, why use activity pub at all? I suppose maybe its so they can run multiple servers themselves and piggy back on the infrastructure that was laid down for free. As long as most of us defederate its not going to change much. You could get about as much data scraping timelines now as they could siphon up with federating. So small instances will continue to federate with each other and that will end up being a smaller amount of the people using the fediverse. The only way this matters is if we obsess about numbers. But honestly most of us can’t afford to run a big instance anyway, so obsessing about unattainable numbers is pointless. It doesn’t change the economics at all, it doesn’t change the fact that small instances will federate with each other and not stuff we don’t like. It may change the privacy stuff, which is something we can fix with some vigilance.
Maybe they want to use Activity Pub so that they can influence further development of it. I don’t know procedure how w3c is makeing decisions and updates to it, but I doubt someone that is not using it can have influence.
