- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
Almost three years since the deadly Texas blackout of 2021, a panel of judges from the First Court of Appeals in Houston has ruled that big power companies cannot be held liable for failure to provide electricity during the crisis. The reason is Texas’ deregulated energy market.
The decision seems likely to protect the companies from lawsuits filed against them after the blackout. It leaves the families of those who died unsure where next to seek justice.
In February of 2021, a massive cold front descended on Texas, bringing days of ice and snow. The weather increased energy demand and reduced supply by freezing up power generators and the state’s natural gas supply chain. This led to a blackout that left millions of Texans without energy for nearly a week.
The state has said almost 250 people died because of the winter storm and blackout, but some analysts call that a serious undercount.
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It is almost like natural monopolies, such as primary power generation and supply, should be under the control of the Government and not private individuals.
They all used to be. Then Reagan and Clinton happened.
ding ding ding. We have a winner! Give that man a prize!
Thank you, thank you.
My prize will sit proudly in my woman cave.
Sorry but lemmy has declared you a male. Your penis will arrive in 3 to 5 business days.
I have a battery-operated one that gives me no drama or grief.
Hopefully that penis is returnable.
Best I can do is store credit.
If she really cared about her battery-operated penis, she’d use the store credit to buy it a fleshlight.
Please note; man was intended as species as in “give that dog a prize” I’m just a dead cat.
All good. :)
Woman caave… go on
Down, boy.
Well it’s probably got a tv, comfy place to sit, and video games
Most places that are not Texas still have something resembling the old school utility model where the state effectively grants a license to a private company to operate and manage the grid, which is itself a public right of way. This is governed by a state appointed utility board.
And in RI, when everyone objects loudly, they nod their heads, and then do it anyway.
Can you point me to where I might learn more about this?
This is pretty good article about how and why.
Yep. Essential services should not be for profit.
For profit isn’t inherently a bad thing, but the more essential the service should warrant more and more regulations on safety security and pricing. They should not be given unlimited control over these.
Government agencies are more than capable of providing equally shitty service even without a profit motive, see: DMV. Any monopoly is. This is partially why regarding universal healthcare most people aren’t advocating for government owned healthcare facilities, but the government being the single payer to privately run facilities to control prices.
While government monopolies can absolutely create shitty services, the main difference between a government service and privately-controlled service is that the government (and hence, the people, in a democracy) has the power to direct the service on how to operate. The government can’t just shut down a private power supplier because their customer service is trash, and the individual consumer has no power as to how the service operates.
I assume the DMV being shitty is just a meme, like Taco Bell giving you diarrhea.
cause i’ve been in many DMVs, in several states, and never had a headache with it, and no one I know personally has had a problem either. Small sample base, of course.
That’s communism and we are a capitalist country.
The right thing to do under a capitalist economy is to buy the government and give yourself a monopoly.
This isn’t a natural monopoly, it’s protected by legislature and cronyism.
A proper capitalist approach to utilities, then the pipes and wires need to be considered no different then the road they are installed on. Recoup money by selling metered wholesale access to the carriers and utilities.
But we don’t have proper capitalism. We have this bastardized American version that sucks.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
We settled it before the damn constitution even started. How these nitwits in DC don’t see how publicly run infrastructure doesn’t provide for the common defense or promote general welfare is beyond me. But I guess running water, heat, affordable healthcare, and an ability to communicate with each other and the rest of the world doesn’t count under that, somehow.
Maybe if the courts took the founders intent from the Prologue instead of the secret letters to their mistresses, we’d have a functional system. But that’s just my opinion.
A government providing services is not communism, it’s a first-world standard.
I thought the sarcasm of my first two paragraphs was heavily laid on, but I suppose not.
I don’t disagree with you, however the majority of electoral college and senate voters agree with my first two paragraphs.
We are insistent that we must do things differently. This American Exceptionalism, as if there’s something fundamentally different between humans born inside its walls than the ones born out.
If we must be insistent that we’re different, we should at least be consistent in its application. The preamble basically implies that the ideal is exactly what you and the rest of my post is saying.
In the modern world a countries greatest strength is its ability to utilize its economies of scale. If for no other reason we should at least realize that the existing systems are unsustainably wasteful.
I’m sorry. I had someone argue something very similar to me. And since it was someone I knew IRL, I knew they were 100% serious…
You mean the dudes who owned slaves and thought that only white men were people? Ok yeah, they were righteous …
Many of them were either abolitionists or manumissionists. It’s hard to believe we had always been so conflicted since our founding (as many of the northern states had already abolished slavery before ratifying the constitution), yet still managed to have a reasonably functional government essentially made up entirely of rich white dudes who openly hated each others guts.
Also it’s easy to sit here and poo-poo the whole slavery thing now, 300 something years later. Washington got his first slaves from inheritance. When he was 11. That’s not me dismissing it, that’s just me demonstrating how normalized it was.
No no… Checks the GOP playbook: we just need to offer a premium power support plan so if the power goes out they’ll provide you a backup generator. It just costs twice the normal rate.
I know your joking here, but this is actually the path forward and is being implemented in other states and countries.
The power company provides at a discount or for free a home backup battery to the residence. If not free, You pay off the battery at a very affordable rate but end up with a smaller power bill as the power company can access its power to balance the load, filling it up when power is cheap and the battery being used when power is expensive.
In a blackout, the home owner gets to use the battery and doesn’t suffer an outage.
It makes the grid more secure by dispersing it around thousands of homes instead of a large expensive failure points and gives them an improved ability to balance the overall load instead of needing a gas peaker plant.
I think it was recently announced that a Vermont power company was going to onboard 100% of their users in the next few years, but it’s happening elsewhere too. If a tree takes something down in a snow storm, people won’t lose power giving them time to fix it.
That actually seems like a really good idea on the infrastructure side. We should still get rid of private power companies.
We should still get rid of private power companies.
Absolutely.
Batteries are consumable though. Only so much usage available
An LFP battery will last over a decade of daily full discharges, and that’s not going to be what happens, and even then, it’s still 80%.
Probably looking at
30-4020-30 years before wanting to replace it due to energy levels.Peaker plants also require maintenance and staffing and other costs associated with them.
The batteries being consumable isn’t a problem.
Edit: and gas from a peaker plant is consumed too
The issue here is specifically that they’re not monopolies any more, because of deregulation
Ironically, if they were a monopoly, they would have an obligation to provide power in emergencies, per the ruling.
So this is more like the spiderman pointing at spiderman thing.
Except instead of Spiderman it’s the Monopoly Man.
I believe cartel would be a better name for it in this case. ERCOT is a cartel.
Why did it take me so long to finally realize that by privatizing services like these, governments are preemptively shifting the blame when the service fails? Voters who are angry at the energy company won’t be (as) angry with the politicians.
What are yah, some sorta communist? /s He’s sayin private companies shouldnt be fuckin us over, get him! /s
Production can be liberalised, but it requires good regulation. Regulation failed to include a rule for responsibility to provided a minimum of energy, the judge can’t do more than the regulation law. It works in EU, we didn’t have blackout past year even though the situation was dramatic mostly due to the Russian invasion, because the liberalised market allowed efficient sharing of energy where it was most needed.
I wouldn’t be so certain a public monopoly could have managed it in such an efficient way (in terms of finance, energy usage and service). People tend to idealize public administration.
Texans must love the abuse, they keep voting for it.
Worth noting this ruling is explicitly based on statewide legislation, meaning this could be changed at any time, if the legislature cared at all.
You really do get exactly what you vote for.
There’s also a lot of voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Suckers with no self esteem.
This election’s got me so low
If they keep it up, people might pack up and go
It’s not that they love it. They’re just so dumb they’ll be convinced it was the fault of the gays and/or trans people.
I just moved out of that state.
Never blamed anyone for leaving but use to advocate a lot to push for change in red states like mine but at this point its obvious they are trying to make living in those states untenable for those with a conscious or not completely crushed & apathetic.
Are you sure its not just Gerrymandering and laws that make it harder for votes to actually matter?
From what I’ve heard is that there’s a large majority stuck in Texas who disagree with the decisions of their government but are too poor to leave the state.
I’m sure gerrymandering is a large part of it.
Three cheers for privatization of public utilities! /s
As an aside, I am gutted by 250+ people losing their lives because Texan politicians can’t get their act together to hold companies responsible. Legislation works … and politicians can, and should, make the laws.
This was the second time it happened too. It happened ten years prior as I recall. So they did nothing then. Did nothing later. No responsibility for anything later. Fuck Texas.
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That storm was completely crazy though. I don’t think Texas has EVER experienced anything like it before.
That will be a yearly occurrence now.
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Maybe they decided the right people were getting hurt?
It’s less about the right people getting hurt, and more about the right people making bank (e.g. themselves).
Though they’ll chalk up people that they would prefer not to be in their state to be an absolute win if they can legally kill them
Texas can always be counted on to take the evil side when a moral decision has to be made. Slavery, segregation, suffrage, bodily autonomy, companies’ “rights” over human rights.
They do have their act together. It just doesn’t include doing anything good for Texans.
Remember when conservatives blamed “windmills” for this? All while conservatives in charge of Texas raked in millions of dollars in campaign donations from ERCOT members. Conservatives will gleefully watch your family die for fun or profit.
A conservative is incapable of empathy or remorse. Be very careful in your dealings with them. They do not value the lives of others the way normal people do.
Conservatives will gleefully watch your family die for fun or profit.
From their beach cabana in Cancun, no less.
Rafael Cruz 😂
Canada apologizes for exporting that to America.
Don’t worry about it. We just assume Canada is too sane to support that craziness
Oh I wish that were true. The Conservative party leader, Pierre Poilievre (aka PP or Millhouse) is on the verge of becoming a Trump syncophant.
Do you mean Fled?
I thought there was a law passed where you have to call people by their ”deadname". If so, all should be calling him Rafael /jk
The greatest Canadian to ever live
Incapable of truth, too. As a lawyer, I will not take them on as clients. They lie constantly to justify their emotions. That’s really it.
But muh feewings!
As an aside, I used to live in a remote fishing area and we had tons of American visitors. I remember one woman told me she knew Obama was the devil because she felt “the evil” emanating from him.
smdh
They can’t be bargained with. They can’t be reasoned with. They don’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are dead.
…or until they are dead.
You’re not wrong!
I see a ginormous BBQ coming soon.
I love long bacon
Hot take: The ruling is accurate.
Vote for candidates who privatize utilities. Get what you vote for.
Only sucks for those that can’t leave and are stuck with a system they can’t correct.
Capitalism 👌
As one of those people who is stuck in the system I can’t correct: I agree.
I had to shit in grocery bags for a week because my toilet was frozen solid. But the blame only partly lies on the power companies. The vast majority of the blame lies on the regulatory agency who had the opportunity to require winterized gear for power plants… And repeatedly refused to do so.
Companies will always choose the cheapest option for whatever market they’re in. And winterizing all your gear is expensive when compared to… Well… Not. Could they have taken the initiative and winterized anyways? Absolutely. But if there’s one thing humans are generally really really bad at, it’s emergency preparedness. Because nobody wants to spend a ton of money building an earthquake-resistant home until after they experience their first earthquake. But that’s why building codes exist, to ensure everyone is forced to build to a minimum safe standard. To use this same metaphor, the building codes didn’t require winterized gear, so the companies didn’t build winterized gear. The fault primarily lies with the people who wrote the building codes, while knowing full well that the area could and would experience winter weather.
ERCOT is the regulatory agency that set those standards, and ERCOT is the agency that refused to require winterized gear. It wouldn’t be fair to penalize the power companies for failing to provide power, when ERCOT should have ensured their facilities were adequately prepared. It would also set a weird precedent to require companies to provide something in a disaster. Yes, they’re utility companies, and are subject to more regulation than most. But does this also mean they could be penalized for downed power lines during a tornado, or for blown transformers during a hurricane flood in Houston?
Right, but also power delivery shouldn’t be privatized at all. Sure the energy providers might not technically be at fault, but having a corporate middle man providing an essential service is ridiculous. We shouldn’t be talking about electricity providers as corporate entities at all. But you are still technically correct
That would take away their liberties!
I’m sorry you had to go through that, and even more sorry your vote isn’t joined by others in greater numbers.
Absolutely. Protecting profits and shareholders is priority #1.
GOP: “Cry more, peasants.”
How can a power company realistically be compelled to provide power, in an emergency? They cannot guarantee that any more than a police officer can guarantee their ability to protect you.
Such a law could only be there to create scapegoats for politicians to hang after they botch the response to a natural disaster or some minor event that significantly disrupts power distribution.
IMO it should be less about compelling them during an emergency as ensuring adequate disaster preparation and grid stability well before an emergency. Not much to do once the damage is already done other than figure out how to ensure it won’t happen again.
Friendly reminder about the event in question: the temperature wasn’t even THAT cold (minimum 0F IIRC). Much of the world deals with ice storms and freezing temperatures without the entire grid failing. I understand a state that deals with heat more than cold being less prepared for ice, but the lesson should need to be learned only once.
Of course, the problem as well as the solution was already recognized - distributed systems to provide redundancy. That would require being regulated nationally, which is far worse for them than some people dying.
SLOs and SLAs are a thing. And yes, they do and can guarantee power to enterprises that pay for it. So it’s not a matter of “if” but, like all things Texans, “how much”.
This exact problem is systematised in software and other infrastructure regions. Even hospitals for example have backup generators.
The problem is that power companies making resilient grids eats into their profits and so they won’t do it unless they’re compelled to
Power companies don’t make grids its the independent operator, in Texas’ case ERCOT, who reported on this potentiality many times but did not receive direction to require facilities to cold proof their gas infrastructure or mediate the risk through gas storage etc. The power companies can’t be held liable for what wasn’t required of them and the regulator can’t because they publicized the risk and recommended it. Ultimately it’s the government at fault.
I’m on board with this. It goes to my original coment, though. It’s not just the government’s fault. It’s the people’s fault for electing them.
This is the same for other jurisdictions as well, it’s just that emergency situations will be investigated. The northeast blackout is another use case in North America and it happened in August so things were much different. We’ve had ice storms that took out transmission infrastructure too. Ultimately the regulator in Texas case actually reported on these risks and recommended changes to regulations.
Cops don’t have to serve and protect or abide by the law. Power companies don’t have to supply power. People who sell you things can deny you access to them.
Hey this is fun, let’s do more!
Health Insurance companies don’t have to provide payment for health services you pay them to cover.
Corporations are people, my friend. Just people with all the rights and no responsibilities.
Yeah … SCOTUS.
If there are no people, there is no company. If there are no companies, people will survive.
That takes care of whatever stupidity SCOTUS was thinking when they made companies and people equal.
They’re not even equal. Corporations are given more freedom than actual people.
You can’t arrest a company. You apparently can’t even arrest the company’s executives for the company’s crimes.
I really want to figure out how to make a company and sell it all my debt.
It’s called the Texas two step.
You file business papers in Texas and open an account there.
You use that business to buy all your underwater assets and other liabilities, leaving you free and clear. Then you declare bankruptcy with your Texas company, wiping out the debts. It what you do when grandpappy and the old board sold asbestos to everyone and their kids and now that you’re in charge you just want that to go away so you can enjoy your trust fund without fear of any destitute widows or their children trying to take any of it.
In any normal state, this is treated as a sham transaction or a straw purchase and is void ab initio. In Texas though, as a handout to the mining, chemical, and business insurance industries, you can follow none of the corporate formalities needed anywhere else to preserve your corporate viel, and just declare that your company is now two, unrelated companies, sort of like that movie Twins where, even though they are genetically identical and born at the same time from the same parents, one of the newborn companies has all the good stuff and the other has all the crap, and you can pretend it was separated at birth, like it never even existed. And that’s how you do the Texas two step. Step three actually is profit.
You set up a company A. You also make a consultant company B. Company A hires very highly paid consultants from company B. Meanwhile you make paintings. You sell those paintings to company B at high prices with the money you got from company A. Now your debts are gone and company A is in debt. Fold company A and B. Add in some shell companies in the Bahamas if needed.
But, you need to have enough money to set up companies, have expensive accountants and lawyers, and to pay off some officials. You’ll have to be rich to become more rich basically.
Don’t follow this advice, it’s just fiction.
Were you born to rich parents?
Sadly no, I’ve been bootstrapping it.
You’re probably out of luck.
And no taxes or very little.
Corporate taxes are a regressive tax on the poor. There’s no benefit to taxing a business instead of people directly, and serious harm caused.
Taxing Amazon doesn’t hurt Jeff Bezos. It just makes products more expensive for people that already struggle to afford them. It doesn’t even effect Amazon’s profit margin.
It’s the structure of taxing that is the problem. If we tax their holdings or assets, tax the fuck out of their stocks exchanges. Force business to do business and make hording too expensive. Companies with billions in cash sitting in offshore bank accounts is disgusting and should be abolished.
Companies with billions in cash sitting in offshore bank accounts is disgusting and should be abolished.
This is how businesses grow, though. Having cash on hand is extremely important, and the amount necessary scales with the size of the business. It’s effectively overhead.
All of these ideas make things more expensive for poor people for no reason.
I don’t think you understand how much money big corporations hoard. Investment isn’t what I am talking about. Pure cash holdings, it’s really not normally done like this.
I literally worked for a fortune 100 company. I know exactly how much, because they report on it internally, especially during big shit like COVID.
There’s nothing wrong with a company having money in the bank. That’s an extremely good thing, especially for financial and tech companies.
I don’t know why people hate companies making money at all. If individual people are making more money than is good for society, tax then. If Jeff Bezos owning Amazon pisses you off, carve you off a slice. No issue there.
Taxing companies makes the lives of poor people harder, so I’m against that.
The whole social contract thing in the USA is giving off an EULA vibe these days.
Reminds me of Kimberly Latrice Jones’ chat.
that is the greatest compliment thank you
Better pull up those bootstraps and start finding your own individual source of power. Maybe you can drill for oil in your backyard?
But don’t do this by installing solar panels. That’s “woke!”
Then once you strike oil find out you never owned the mineral rights to begin with ¯\(ツ)/¯
During the storm one iirc Republican Texan politician said something along the lines of “you people need to solve it yourself”. They bought hard into private market solves everything.
It was Tim Boyd. He called the people complaining “socialists,” lol.
[People want electricity.]
“Is this socialism?”
But pretty sure the one I’m thinking of was a woman.
Don’t stop paying big power. Just ready yourself to die quietly when you’re supposed to.
The more and more I hear about these terrible decisions made in Texas, no exception abortion (even if medically deemed necessary) and now this, the more and more I am grateful I don’t live in that trainwreck state.
A recent study showed that Texans have the least personal freedom of any state
Oh the irony
I hate this fucking state so much.
Deregulating the electricity industry has been a complete and utter disaster.
#fuckyourdividends
First world, third world, and Texas.
Texas is a shithole, and even more insufferable are the Texan nationalists. It’s funny from a distance, but being there not so much.
Phew. Worried this could lead to overturning that cops have no duty to protect you.
If you don’t like the service you’re getting then just vote in new leaders who can change things /s
Thankfully nobody in their right mind chooses to live in this state, those that remain were born with a death wish, or since sort of moral ambiguity to life.
Supreme Court: How expensive could it possibly be to sue a utility for breach of contract? $10?
Or they just can’t leave for one reason or another – moving is tough
