“Chronic cannabis use makes you stupid, to put it bluntly, and can also cause psychosis,” Thomas Fischbach, president of a German federation of doctors for children and adolescents (BVKJ), told the Die Welt newspaper.
Meanwhile, at Oktoberfest…
The drunken debauchery often leads to fights, aggressive behavior, and bierleichen — so-called “beer corpses,” which is what locals call the many passed out drunks lying on the hill behind the tents.
Cannabis bad doesn’t mean alcohol good
No, but here he is trotting out the line about Schizophrenia, which is a real risk, but is dwarfed in its societal impact by the downsides of alcohol. I don’t expect he’s said anything at all publicly about the impacts of that though, which would suggest that he’s the talking head that the German press always contact for a negative comment about cannabis every time it hits the news. Especially as this is reported by Die Welt which is an Axel Springer publication.
The link between cannabis and schizophrenia is also supper dubious at best.
Its for the most part based on statistics that a large number of people who go to the ER and are there diagnosed with psychosis have used cannabis.
Schizophrenia is a genetic condition characterized by frequent psychosis. And a significant number of this group experiments with cannabis before onset of schizophrenic symptoms, which often only arise in late puberty/ young-adult age.
There are theories that cannabis may trigger schizophrenia in people that have the genetic sensibility to it. Assuming it would otherwise have stayed dorment (for longer)
But 3 pieces of information are ignored.
First people diagnosed with schizophrenia that did not use cannabis before onset of symptoms share the exact same statistically tendency to start using cannabis later in life as the group that did before, leading to theories of self medication and there is proof of anti-psychotic properties of some cannabinoids.
20% of the general population smokes (nicotine), 80% of the schizophrenic population smokes, its such a well known fact that its a common movie trope. Yet not a single theory about how nicotine effects psychosis exist. Because remember only rare people with a genetic sensibility can develop psychosis and psychotic paranoia is a fear tactic
Psychosis and schizophrenia are not well understood in general, there part of the neurodivergent spectrum which is a modern idea in its scientific infancy, More and more we do understand that the main driver of psychosis (and every person can be pushed into experiencing a psychosis) is extreme levels stress.
I know some other things extreme is related with:
-
addiction to substance abuse of any kind, every time you crave = stress
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the troubles a (young) person may have that leads to them frequently using drugs to begin with.
The statistics do make sense but relation simply isn’t causation and its shameful that politicians can just misinterpret science like this.
Yes, I suppose what I ought to have said is that for people with an already elevated risk of developing schizophrenia cannabis could be the trigger. Thank you for this well written summary though.
-
Funnily (well, not really, but what can we do but laugh), the other cited source, businesses insider, is also an Axel Springer publication. As is Politico, Morning Brew, and some other stuff.
So they aren’t just a German problem anymore, they’re now everyone’s problem.
Like we do any better without Springer in the Anglosphere. If it’s not Murdoch metastasising everywhere it’s one of the Bannon/Koch Foundation appendages.
Yeah. I’ve gotten so tired of checking all the sources in algorithmic news feeds that I went back to an rss feed of news agencies, and trusted papers. Media landscape kinda sucks.
That’s not even the argument which was being made if that’s what you’re implying.
Their argument is simply: why is alcohol legal if it’s much more harmful?
But… alcohol should be legal, no? Despite the harm it causes, prohibition simply does not work.
Cannabis can also cause harm (albeit less harm than alcohol) but should also still be legal. And other drugs like fentanyl (arguably) cause more harm than alcohol…but should also be legal.
Prohibition is literally never a realistic solution to any drug or drug problems. Not a single country has ever had success.
okay but the statement he made fits into a societal context such that the overall message being sent by a group of people that have Oktoberfest but make cannabis illegal is absolutely “cannabis bad, alcohol good”.
Well I’m already stupid and psychotic so no harm done
Probably not as selectively stupid as Thomas Fischbach.
Overuse of cannabis can cause something called cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. You have severe nausea, uncontrolled vomiting, and stomach cramping. It’s caused by your nervous system, so people who have it tend to sit in a hot shower for a long time when they don’t get relief from anti-nausea meds. Luckily, it clears up pretty quick with a shot of haloperidol, and as long as you cut back you can continue to partake.
It doesn’t affect everybody and usually you have to smoke a lot over a long period of time, but I didn’t know about it before and I think people should be aware.
Happy smoking, frients
Of course the counter argument to legalisation was published in “Die Welt”, the right leaning newspaper from the Springer media group. The group which also publishes the Bild Zeitung which plays a big role in the rise of the far right in Germany and has a history of reckless opinion journalism which even lead to the shooting of a member of the student uprising in the past (Rudy Dutschke if you want to look it up). Fuck everything Springer.
I read the translation of Stefan Aust’s book on the Baader-Meinhof and he covers the Rudy Dutschke shooting and also the bit where a Springer editorial praised Savak for beating up students protesting the Shah’s visit to Germany. Called them something like ‘Jubilant Iranians’ if I recall correctly.
At least it takes away one reason for undercover German police to annoy foreigners with their “random” drug tests
Oh you can and they 100% will it is still heavily regulated: only a certain % thc and not more than 25g. So they can also do a thc quick test and weigh it. Also there is still the argument which they can use that if you take marijuana that means you do other things so please also take a urine test… What I’m saying is that very eager cops can and will continue to annoy people
It would at least help if they stop assuming the only reason a foreigner from the free west would come through Germany is to sell weed.
But weed is the devil’s evil hand designed drug to get them to take harder drugs and listen to metal /s
On a more serious note: a lot of cops here sadly still see it like this and i am afraid that it won’t stop just because a law is there. To be honest I except the law to just last, similarly to Thailand, till the next election. Germany just like the most rest of Europa will vote pretty heavily leaning right and they basically swore to “destroy” that law. Thanks for listening to my ted talk Here’s a friendly PSA: The permitted level of THC in blood/urine while driving has not been increased.
It is going to be increased from 1ng to 3 which is not a lot but something. The whole decriminalization is not a lot but something.
I really would like to see a source to that since AFAIK “§ 24 a Straßenverkehrsgesetz” doesn’t get changed…
They will do this post CanG
True, there is currently a interdisciplinary working group that will determine if and how much it will be increased by but it could very well lead to no increase.
Did this actually happen to you? I’ve been to, and even smoked weed in (discreetly), Germany many times as a tourist without issue. It was just annoying that it was technically illegal…but no one ever attempted to drug test me or ask me about drug use at all.
Yes, I didn’t spend a lot of time in Germany but it happened several times. I traveled by train and they claim the train stations are where people do their business
First time I hear that, happend to you?
Hahaha happens to many people who have brown skin or look like a punk or hippie in the eyes of some cop.
My dad used to wear a black leather vest and long hair. He was searched uncountable times.
Wait, what now? Do they walk around making tourists piss in cups if they look like they smoked weed?
They make you empty your pockets and pat you down.
They look like gangsters claiming to be police, don’t even show a badge until you ask for it, they want all your stuff, like your wallet, to search through it.
Good ol’ stop and frisk. It doesn’t prevent crime and it let’s bastard cops be bastards
Well Floris-Jan it might just be you. Do you happen to look like a drug dealer?
Not at all :) But I suppose it was obvious I was a tourist
Fuck, now I gotta buy cannabis from someone name April for it to be legal?
My dealers name is fucking Gus Gutenburg. How many people are even named April in Germany? Probably not a lot. I hate our parliament.
There’s a reason a certain green teenage pizza loving group made friends with her
deleted by creator
Bro just put his plug on blast
Hey it’s me ur april
German city in Abril
An old classic
Is this real legalization like in Canada, or fake legalization like most other places?
If a tourist can’t buy it from a store, fly to a different city/state domestically with it, and then smoke it at a designated airport smoking area outside the terminal… I struggle to see that as full ‘legalization’.
If you are prohibited from doing all those things, it just seems like a different version of prohibition. Step in the right direction though, sure.
The issues here are largely with the EU which stops it from being sold in stores. For now, possession is legalised and you can have all previous arrests made because you were carrying up to 25g permanently removed from your record. It also legal to grow at home.
In this sense, it is legal for personal use but not for commercial use. To get access to weed, they will be rolling out “cannabis social clubs” in summer in which you need to be a member to be allowed to buy weed. These clubs are not allowed to make a profit. There is a plan to later do some tests with commercial usage but its not clear where that is on the roadmap.
It will be interesting to see if this will have any effects on the EU. I can imagine if more countries want to support the legalization that some hurdles can be removed there.
Then what about the Netherlands where all of that is legal?
Can’t Germany use that as an angle?
It’s actually not legal in the Netherlands, it’s a very strange and frankly kind of bad set up. This is what the other commenter meant with “fake legalization”.
You can read up on it here: https://cannigma.com/regulation/marijuana-laws-netherlands/
Would be cool if they said fuck you to the EU.
People kept worrying about Canada breaking a UN rule but Canada said fuck it and did it anyway.
Would be cool if they said fuck you to the EU.
The British did that and look where it got them
Canada didn’t leave the UN.
The UN and EU are somewhat different organisations.
This is true. What I’m saying is I respect the willingness to ‘do it anyway’ attitude.
I’ll agree on that. The Germans, being German already did a very big step, tbh
Considering the position Germany has in the EU, this is very unlikely
Baby steps!
Lol this article describes the law very poorly. From a club you can get up to 25 grams a day, for up to a maximum of 50 a month.
Thats nonsense. 25g is the general limit of what you are allowed to have on your person outside of your home starting april. 50g is what you can have while at home. So basically 25g to carry around + 25g stored somewhere at home.
The whole thing with the cannabis growing clubs is something coming later this year. These will mostly be about getting seeds, saplings and advice.
That’s still quite a lot. I thought less tbh, at least on your person.
Its more than you will ever need yes. You arent allowed to sell or gift it to anyone but 25g is insane for self use so they basically acknowledge that people will ilegally distribute it, but just wont care if u dont let urself be caught in the act.
It’s not that much, less than an ounce. Snoop smokes that in a recording session.
It’s a lot, but less than most single pot plants will yield (typically 100-200g, but sometimes a lot more), I imagine that might be annoying for people who grow their own, but then again I don’t see how it can really be enforced.
I think the only way would be to get caught with, either more than 25g on you or selling it
Yes, what you’re saying doesn’t negate what I’m saying, and viceversa 😅
I’m just saying the article makes it look like you’ll be able to get 25 grams a day with no further restriction, and that’s not true. That among other issues with the article.
Oh you are right, sorry for that. I didnt know the monthly distribution limits were a thing for the clubs and thought the article writers just hallucinated that.
FAQ, in german only sadly but translating is ez nowadays i guess https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/themen/cannabis/faq-cannabisgesetz
The law is slightly nonsensical, in particular regarding amounts and such. It’s giving written by someone who’s never seen a weed
I can already get seeds and advice, the clubs will locations where they grow for all members.
Are edibles a thing in Germany or just flower? I can’t smoke but Im really good at eating gummy bears. Haribo needs to corner this market.
They’re a thing as long as you make them. There’s not gonna be commercial cannabis
Ok. I think I’m still ok with that. I think I read the legal limit for growing your own was kinda high. Here in Canada it’s only 4 plants.
It’s only 3 plants in Germany, but you are not allowed to have more than 50g in your home. Which is a bit difficult to control and achieve, but we take what we get.
I’m so sorry the EU is so far behind Canada but I find it hilarious this is the only metric where we’re ahead. If they legalize it the way it is here, and if I can get by B1 at least, I’ll be applying to move there instantly
April fools.
I think it’s a real shame that 4/20 is when it is. I’m not sure millions of Germans toking up for a celebration on Hitler’s birthday will go over well. 😂
Can we expect one less weapons factory for any open weed store? 😄
I’m 21 and think this is profound
Hell no.
I sure hope not
I’d rather prefer money to go to R&D of renewables energy and electronics instead of weapons. Nothing would ever change my mind.
I honestly don’t think legalising is the best path looking at SF, California reporting after harm reduction campaign. Maybe empathetic rehabilitation.
empathetic rehabilitation.
From what? Pot addiction? Lmao?
Yes. While cannabis is unproblematic to most users, some cannabis users experience substance abuse disorders that are hurting their health and social relations. They should receive qualified and empathetic care, not condemnation and criminalisation.
Yeah, you’re right, sorry. They’re acting like legalizing pot is done purely to feed addiction and that “empathetic rehabilitation” of those addicted is an alternative to legalization/will make legalization unnecessary, so I still disagree with their original comment, but I shouldn’t have so flippantly dismissed the concept of addiction.
Legalization is the first step in harm reduction. While it is still illegal it is much harder for people get help.
If you have underlying issues with anxiety and paranoia, adding marijuana to the mix exacerbates these issues greatly and becomes a poor crutch for dealing with them. I’ve seen friends and family who smoked 2-3x weekly for a few years develop eyebrow-raising mental problems. So I tend to agree.
Personal anecdote, N=4.
(Yeah of course, alcohol is just as bad, or worse in extreme cases, but people can usually sense the damage being done to them by it afterwards. Pot’s effects are internal. It’s hard to reflect until it’s too late.)
So legalize it and put effort into treating addictions and mental illnesses. This isn’t very hard.
Yeah of course, alcohol is just as bad, or worse in extreme cases
Most if not all cases. Cannabis is objectively less dangerous in practically every way.
Pot’s effects are internal
And alcohol’s effects aren’t?
So, alcohol is (mostly) illegal in Bangladesh and we have the lowest rate of consumption at about 0.00 L per person/year
So legalize it and put money into treating addictions and mental illnesses. This isn’t very hard.
Of course. But look around you. Our governments won’t do that, and no political party that could make it to power is pushing a platform like that. I’m more than happy to make kids playgrounds out of concrete if I knew that bandages were free.
Most if not all cases. Cannabis is objectively less dangerous in practically every way.
I agree. But it’s not like Alcohol usage will go down once Cannabis is legalized. If anything, people will use them together in a vicious cycle. Throwing baseball bats into a dangerous hockey arena is never a good idea, even if the bats are made of foam.
And alcohol’s effects aren’t?
Alcohol’s effects are immediately visible. It’s hard to be an alcoholic and still look at yourself in the mirror happily the next morning. Weed has no such negative phenotype, if anything you will look happier the next morning for abusing it.
This is your brain on the war on drugs. You’re talking nonsense.
constructive
Not only are you parroting war on drugs talking points, but also I wonder if you realize how thoroughly the origins of it lie in racism.
I’ll let you do your own google search on who Henry Ainslinger was, and notable quotes from him on the matter of marijuana - but more more recently you may find this bit interesting from Nixon’s drug guy:
https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/
“You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
Decades of supposed concern for public health was a cover for conservative control of the population. A pretty popular template for so many other conservative talking points.
He sounds like a right vile cunt. But me not being head over heels for more vices doesn’t mean I’m a strawman for ostracizing others. It’s not binary. I will always vote left and progressive to protect the freedoms of others. But I just don’t see the social advantage in adding yet more bread and circuses to keep people down, and nor do I see the benefit of throwing more avenues of abuse to people who already struggle with impulse control. I genuinely believe this will end badly, but I’m happy to be proven wrong.
You’re welcome.
Of course. But look around you. Our governments won’t do that, and no political party that could make it to power is pushing a platform like that. I’m more than happy to make kids playgrounds out of concrete if I knew that bandages were free.
So we should just throw up our hands and do nothing rather than fight for justice.
I agree. But it’s not like Alcohol usage will go down once Cannabis is legalized. If anything, people will use them together in a vicious cycle.
So? There are systems that can deal with these problems. Addiction clinics, therapy, support groups.
Throwing baseball bats into a dangerous hockey arena is never a good idea, even if the bats are made of foam.
Why would foam bats be dangerous to throw into a hockey arena? Have you ever been to a hockey game? They wear all kinds of protective equipment. Throwing foam bats at them would probably not hurt that much, if at all. Actually sounds like it would be pretty fun.
Alcohol’s effects are immediately visible. It’s hard to be an alcoholic and still look at yourself in the mirror happily the next morning. Weed has no such negative phenotype, if anything you will look happier the next morning for abusing it.
Cannabis use is such a menace to society that people who abuse it *checks notes* feel happier the next morning. The horror!
I get that cannabis isn’t a completely harmless drug, like most drugs legal or otherwise, but “it’s not perfectly safe so it should just keep being criminalized” is a bad take that has an entire history of not working. Legalize it and deal with the problems that crop up. Addiction and drug abuse aren’t new problems, we know how to handle them. And for the yet undiscovered health problems that cannabis might cause, legalizing it will open up avenues for research so we can actually figure out its dangers instead of just writing off all cannabis users as (as another user puts it) “mentally fried idiots” or just repeating the same reefer madness nonsense that’s been going around since the Nixon administration.
I agree. But it’s not like Alcohol usage will go down once Cannabis is legalized. If anything, people will use them together in a vicious cycle. Throwing baseball bats into a dangerous hockey arena is never a good idea, even if the bats are made of foam.
Are you kidding me? For years I said “I’d stop drinking tomorrow if I could legally buy weed.” I was not an alcoholic, though I’m sure I met some overzealous standard for “problem drinker” for a period of time. Within months of getting a prescription for medical cannabis I’d just gradually stopped drinking and also using nicotine, without even much effort.
And I’m not even a heavy user. 3g will last me a month, easy. Yes, I’m just one anecdote, but I’ve seen plenty of similar stories.
I hope you’re right.
Buddy the other option here is not them managing to deal with it, psych health care in germany is abysmally absent, it’s becoming alcoholics
The thing is, they already are. Excessive drinking at a friends house is so normalized here, it’s become background. The police might pull you over if you’re swerving all over the road on the way back home, but usually they wont. Adding weed to that mix of “normal” background behaviours is going to improve that? I don’t think so.
And I’m not saying prohibit all vices. People need their release - of course they do - but rather than encourage new addictions behind closed doors, can’t we just make it easier for people to hang out in public at night?
looking at SF, California
There are a number of US states that have legalized it sooner and more thoroughly than California (not to mention Germany). What did SF specifically do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZu61OgITE
I Investigated the City that Pays You to Do Drugs…
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=ypZu61OgITE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Yay, Germany gets to smell like skunk and be full of mentally fried idiots. Whoop-dee-frickin-doo.
Except that hasn’t really happened anywhere else weed has been legalized, so not sure why you’d think that when there’s demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
keep assuming legalization will lead to disaster no matter how many times it doesn’t
Whoop-dee-frickin-doo.
Holy shit shut up
Still better than smelling of alcohol and piss, the mentally fried idiots you already have.
Hey smartass Germans have been getting faded for a while, it’s been de facto decriminalized for years (aside from in B*vria). Go to any major German city in the past decade or two and you’d smell it as fast as in Cali. If you spent a day in Berlin you’d smell it on the clock lmao
You obviously aren’t fun.
I don’t smoke pot, I don’t like the smell, I had edibles like twice in my life, and don’t plan on repeating the experience.
I still think that there is little logical reason to forbid people from consuming, and that it is especially hypocritical to do so while alcohol and tobacco are legal, and freely available.
For the record, I hate alcohol and tobacco just as much and think we should have stuck with Prohibition. No mind-altering substances should be legal.
And during the prohibition, black market flourished. The business will always be there. The question is do you support organized crime or do you support taxing to cover harm reduction and safety for people (buying from non-criminal sources, tested product etc)
Currently your stance is to provide money for organized crime
As has been stated already, past prohibitions didn’t really work out that well.
I’d also add that ‘mind-altering substances’ is casting a really wide net, and could be argued to include stuff like caffeine.
I personally like Portugals approach of decriminalisation, because I think criminalising these substances usually hurts people addicted to them most, while helping those wanting to profit of addiction.
Have you been watching “Reefer Madness” and thinking it’s a documentary? Spoiler: it isn’t.
How is this different from today.
Man I love the smell of fresh cannabis in the morning. Never gets old.
Potheads getting triggered because people don’t support their disgusting habit never gets old.
please go the fuck back to reddit, i promise absolutely no one wants your nerd ass here
There’s a reason I block Hexbear communities when I come across them, js.
good, i hope to never see from you again you absolute worm
It’s called the internet. Suck it up, buttercup.
drown in your own piss
How classy.
Is this a new instance? I have seen a lot of shit people from there in a short time.
The most boomer shit I’ve seen on lemmy yet lmao. Reefer madness ass take.
Only cause Lemmy evidently doesn’t have many reasonably-minded folk on it. Been discovering that a lot lately.
How can you ever use nazi parlance which downplays trauma and not see yourself as the bad guy.
“Nazi parlance”, sure 🤣
Whatever, keep collecting those Ls.
